Initiative for U.S.-China Dialogue on Global Issues

Eleanor M. Albert: Today our guest is Jodie Wen. Jodie Wen is a postdoctoral researcher and assistant fellow at the Center for International Security and Strategy at Tsinghua University. Wen holds a Ph.D. in Middle East studies from Peking University and was a visiting scholar at the Oxford School of Global and Area Studies at Oxford University. Her main research interests include U.S. Middle East policy, Middle East politics, and international communication. Before transferring to academia, she had extensive media experience and had her own talk show. Jodie, welcome to the show. It's a treat to have you today.

Jodie Wen: It's my honor to be part of this program. Thanks for having me.

Eleanor M. Albert: So we're going to be talking about China and its relationship to the BRICS grouping, and this grouping dates back to 2009, about 15 years ago, when the first major diplomatic summit was held. Since then, what has the BRICS group achieved before its broader expansion that took place last year?

Jodie Wen: I think it's very important to talk about this at this stage because as you know, last year, BRICS has made many rapid progress. When we talk about BRICS mechanism, I have to start with emergency. This mechanism actually emerged in response to the call for a new model of cooperation, because as we all know, in 2008, [the] global financial crisis not only impacted the world economy, but also exposed some shortcomings of the global governance systems before [were] mostly operated by U[nited] S[tates] or other developed countries.

I think emerging market economies and developing countries want to find some good ways to develop their environment and develop their economy. So in June 2009, the leaders of the BRICS countries had their first summit in Russia and also one year later, South Africa joined.

You asked me the main progress. I think they are three parts. For the first part, I think it has expanded the circle of friends, in Chinese named, 朋友圈, pengyouquan, of the BRICS countries. Since the Xiamen summit in 2017, BRICS actually has transferred from just a regional representative platform to a globally representative one, inviting leaders from emerging market and developing countries.

Secondly, it has expanded the cooperation areas among these countries. As we know, the starting area is cooperation in economic area. But right now, it has transferred from this area to political, security, and also people-to-people exchanges. So I think the cooperation areas have expanded.

Thirdly, it has enhanced the quality of the cooperation. The construction of the NDB, the New Development Bank, I think it has make some important progress, the quality of cooperation. So I think these three are aspects are the main progress that BRICS countries have made in these past years.

Eleanor M. Albert: Great.  So you were just talking about the expansion of this circle of friends, the 朋友圈, pengyouquan. The grouping originally was four countries: Brazil, Russia, India, and China. A year later, South Africa joined; that's five. Then in 2024, four more countries joined—Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, and the U[nited] A[rab] E[mirates]. And then just recently, Indonesia joined. From your vantage point, what is the impetus behind the expansion of BRICS? Obviously BRICS was an acronym for those [first] five countries. What drove the grouping to grow larger? And then were there specific criteria for membership?

Jodie Wen: I think this is a very important question. Actually, I just want to give you an example. We all know BRICS is a system. It's a working, cooperation pattern, just like our individuals. Why you want to include your friends, or why do you want to have more friends? You may have some reasons behind that. I think that main expansion of BRICS countries can be concluded by maybe two words. One is interest and the other is differences.

We are making friends. The main starting point is primarily driven by our common interests. We share the same hobbies or we'll have same backgrounds. I think almost the same can be just used in this issue is that we share some similar interests. So this expansion, I think, it's primarily driven by their interest divergence between traditional developed countries and the emerging developing nations.

Eleanor M. Albert: Could I ask you what some of those interests are? What would you identify as those common shared interests among emerging developing countries?

Jodie Wen: I think the one main reason that these countries, they all want to have some global influence. They want to have their voice or to be heard or they want to have economic development. But this is very important: the global influence and also economic progress. These are the two main common interests.

Eleanor M. Albert: So you had said interests and differences. We talked about the interests. What are some of the differences in thinking about this expansion?

Jodie Wen: I think the differences really, how to say, like China and the BRICS and also India and
Russia, actually we share so many common interests, but also have some differences. You can see China and India; actually we have some differences in our countries’ developing patterns, or we share some different values. But why we can exist in this organization or in this pattern? I think we still have some common interests.

Eleanor M. Albert: From looking at this group of countries that just recently joined, was it more like an invitation by existing BRICS members for these countries to participate or was there demand from these countries themselves to join? For example, was it, say, Brazil or Russia or China wanted specific countries to become part of BRICS, or was it more, the Egyptian leadership said, "We really want to be a part of BRICS?”

Jodie Wen: Most are motivated by themselves because as you know, the starting point for these countries, they are facing the global financial crisis. So they have to face the challenges that come from the crisis. So most of these emerging market economies and developing countries, they want to have a better safeguard of their development rights, and they want to achieve some sustainable development. I think they're mostly driven by their own thoughts or their own development decisions.

Eleanor M. Albert: Great. You've been talking about the BRICS grouping a bit as a pattern of cooperation. And I'm curious now that it has been around for a good chunk of time, how does this grouping represent itself in other multilateral fora? Does it serve as a coalition in certain places or in certain venues?

Jodie Wen: To answer this question, the main feature or the prominent feature of the BRICS cooperation mechanism is openness. As we know, the BRICS mechanism is mostly committed to deepening cooperation with other emerging markets and developing countries. So the logic of the standards is exclusivity. It's a framework or thinking that can differentiate us from them. However, I think this is starkly different from the principles upheld by BRICS countries. I don't know if you can still remember our President Xi Jinping's speech at the Kazan summit [2024]: he stated that BRICS countries have come together based on common aspirations and the overall trend of world peace and development. This partner country mechanism is another unique aspect of the BRICS mechanism.

We have to allow more non-member states to participate in BRICS affairs through partnership and with some sharing benefits or cooperation in economics and also in technology, finance, and other fields. This is very important openness. For one side, we are happy to cooperate with our member countries, but we also allow non-member states to participate. I think that's the main reason why in 2024, this is the first meeting that's held offline after the expansion, so they think that they can cooperate in this mechanism.

Eleanor M. Albert: One of the things you were talking about in our opening question was talking about the expansion of the different forms of cooperation. We talked about economics being the primary driver and pursuing different forms of development, especially in the face of crises. Of course, the New Development Bank is a major achievement from the BRICS. You also talked about starting to expand in the political field, a little bit in the security. Outside of economics, what type of cooperation is taking place among these BRICS member countries? What are they doing?

Jodie Wen: There are I think two parts I can mention here. The first one is infrastructure and the sustainable development. The NDB has funded various infrastructure projects contributing to sustainable development in member countries. I think this support has been crucial for countries like India. If you have been to China, you can know the subways and the high-speed railways in China, this is our advantage. So we help these countries to meet infrastructure and sustainable development.

The second thing is people-to-people bonds. I think BRICS has made some progress enhancing people-to-people connection through cultural, educational, and academic exchanges. There's one professor I want to mention: Professor Wang Lei. He's an expert at Beijing Normal University. In this university, they set up a BRICS center and G20 center. This organization [BRICS] is mostly operated by developing countries and the other [G20] combines developed and developing countries. Right?

In China, in these academic institutions, from the government’s perspective, they have set up these kinds of centers to do more research and to initiate more people-to-people exchanges and communications.

Eleanor M. Albert: Yeah, I want to shift us to talking more about China's approach to BRICS. We've talked a lot about the group itself and the cooperation mechanism, but how does China see its role within BRICS? It is obviously as the second-largest economy in the world, it is a bigger economic player with arguably significantly more influence internationally than some of the other members. So how does China fashion a role for itself? Does it try to shape the agenda within the BRICS?

Jodie Wen: This is one question I had been asked by many friends from U[nited] S[tates] or from European countries. China has played a very important role in this mechanism. We have to admit that China has played a pivotal role as a key driver and a significant contributor within this cooperation mechanism because China is the founding member and is a very strong supporter of this mechanism. China has not only witnessed the growth trajectory of BRICS countries, but also has been the main force driving the deepening and widening of this mechanism.

I can give you some numbers. According to WTO data, BRICS countries accounted for 23% of global exports in 2023, and also with China leading the way among BRICS nations with a share of 40%. This fully demonstrates China's prominent position in the global economy and also in this role, in this mechanism. So I think China is a vital engine for the development of this mechanism.

The second is China is doing its best to try to actively promote the construction of BRICS. To attract and make more members to be part of that, to deepen and widen this mechanism. This is also important. China is like a leading country or like a driving force to help this mechanism to be more attractive in developing countries, and also in developed countries because also it's open to all countries.

Eleanor M. Albert: I'm curious why this concept of openness is so central from China's perspective. How does this BRICS grouping fit into China's general foreign policy strategy? Historically, a lot of people think that China had a preference for doing a lot of its foreign policy on a bilateral basis. I think that is not the case any longer. China has chosen to be much more active in either regional groupings and just more involved in multilateral global governance. So how does this BRICS grouping fit into China's broader approach to how it wants to conduct its foreign affairs?

Jodie Wen: This is also a very good question. I have talked about this with many friends in academia and also in government and I think we share some common opinions, and I think this does not just represent my personal opinion. I think the BRICS cooperation, this mechanism is a very practice of China's foreign strategy, the initiative of China's foreign strategy. I think this not only serving as a crucial component of China's foreign policy, but also enriching and developing the theory for “major country diplomacy with Chinese characteristics.”

The BRICS cooperation mechanism profoundly embodies China's diplomatic philosophy of pursuing peaceful development. I think what Chinese governments, they have to say almost every time, is that “We pursue a peaceful development.” President Xi Jinping has repeatedly emphasized that BRICS countries should jointly safeguard world peace and promote common development. These are the core principles of China's foreign strategy of upholding peace, cooperation, and mutual benefit. So this platform or this mechanism provides important stage for China to… International partners, they can see what is China doing. China's really trying to make others to understand that we pursue peaceful development in this mechanism.

Eleanor M. Albert: That's a really interesting approach to it. Among all of the different types of groupings that China is part of and that China has initiated—there's FOCAC (the Forum for China-Africa Cooperation), there's other types of regional groupings. Is there any prioritization from the government in terms of which of these groupings it feels is more productive? Is BRICS now a more important grouping because it is a larger group? Where does the BRICS grouping fall among China's other types of initiatives?

Jodie Wen: China has played very actively in global mechanism, not only in BRICS and as you know, we are also part of G20 and APEC, all-world mechanism, working cooperation mechanism. Why we want to do more in this BRICS mechanism? It's a much new platform for developing countries and as you know, China is a developing country. So I think the main attraction for China to take a more active role in this mechanism, this is a mechanism [where] China can do more or act more. Like, in G7 or G20 or APEC, these have a much wider partnership platform. So I think the role of China is so limited, but in BRICS mechanism, I think China can play a more active role.

Eleanor M. Albert: On that note, because it is targeted more for developing countries and that it's this newer platform, how do you see BRICS impacting a general approach to international order? From this grouping that is newer, where China wants to do more, what role might the BRICS have vis-à-vis the operating procedures of global governance in general?

Jodie Wen: I'll share one very simple idea that as human beings and as one member of the whole world, we all share same interests. Global governance just helped us to develop in a better way, not only for individuals, but also for countries. I think China just want to have its own... how to say, to develop its own economy and also help other countries to make much more progress in economy and to have a much better life.

For me as a scholar, I don't think China really wants to leave the international order that [was] established by U[nited] S[tates]. I think we just want to make common progress in this system.

The views and opinions expressed are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the position of Georgetown University.

Outro

The U.S.-China Nexus is created, produced, and edited by me, Eleanor M. Albert. Our music is from Universal Production Music. Special thanks to Shimeng Tong, Tuoya Wulan, and Amy Vander Vliet. For more initiative programming, videos, and links to events, visit our website at uschinadialogue.georgetown.edu. And don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.